- current events -
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<g!ys> ok u all got enuff time to research the subject better have something to show today
<H@MgB@c0N> all ready to push the gay agenda here!
<H@MgB@c0N> i hope mr fish wun use being dead as an excuse when he gets the smack down, heh heh
<DaDeaDFISH> ah u wait long long i compose arguments ten times better than u even when dead
<H@MgB@c0N> yah u decompose better oso. tee hee!
<DaDeaDFISH> wtf how come u become so lame oso
<g!ys> hmm ok i see u all are taking your old positions on the issues. velly gd
<g!ys> but b4 we start how's it on the other side mr fish
<DaDeaDFISH> oh life... i mean death's fine down... uh i mean up there
<DaDeaDFISH> okok i got busted for biting one of the shiny b*stards with wings there, but the f**ker deserved it for trying to stop me from biting another f**ker that also deserved it
<g!ys> i see
<H@MgB@c0N> nothing new
<DaDeaDFISH> but its not all bad all they do is put u upside down in a toilet roll down here until u r velly velly sowwy
<DaDeaDFISH> tho its horrible wat they do in the lower levels, they put food in your mouth and then push it out of your cheek pouches b4 u can eat
<H@MgB@c0N> eeeeks! *vibrates*
<g!ys> *raises eyebrows* vibrates?!
<H@MgB@c0N> oh i meant *shudders*, paiseh
<g!ys> back to the main biz. who's going first?
<H@MgB@c0N> yes, let the dead hamsters get all the breaks. nvm
<DaDeaDFISH> well the case is open and shut for me. u all really want to see half-naked gay perverts molesting your kids? the continued erosion of the very religious values that made our nation great?
<H@MgB@c0N> um first off i dun have kids
<DaDeaDFISH> ya and it's actually all g!ys' fault for not getting some girlhams
<g!ys> ok la my bad
<H@MgB@c0N> and secondly, hasn't singapore always been a secular country???
<DaDeaDFISH> hm wait
<DaDeaDFISH> oh sorry i copied-and-pasted that argument off a forum specific to the USA. ignore it
<DaDeaDFISH> or how about this, i think gays are yucky and the holy book says its adam and eve not adam and steve and all my friends say so?
<H@MgB@c0N> i thot we have gone thru this before, howzat different from saying black pple are inferior and going from the white ham's burden of slavery, then grudgingly to "separate but equal", and finally to acknowledge equality after damn long? or smacking left-handed people, who were obviously in league with the devil, until they velly velly sowwy and turned to the path of light?
<DaDeaDFISH> and the point is...?
<H@MgB@c0N> tat altho religions base their authority on being "right" for eva and eva they often end up being laughably wrong? interestingly enuff if you throw the average reasonable and religious person into Europe mebbe 500 years ago he wuld haf gd reason to b horrified. esp since he wuld prob be lynched for witchcraft when his handphone rings
<DaDeaDFISH> but ah u see, religions are nt liddat anymore leh. there may haf been mistakes in the past (tho i'm not admitting anything), but is all GOOD now! we haf figgered it out. and there is something about gays that makes dem different from nig... i mean, black people, and those creepy left-handed ones! uh let's see... they destroy families! FAMILY BREAKERS!
<g!ys> lemee butt in here. mr ham, i see u have tried to link racist behaviour and stupid superstitions with religion. can u substantiate that non-religious pple do not behave that way too?
<H@MgB@c0N> erm when big religions held real power, non-religious equalled social outcast at best and death at worst, thus the majority were religious. i think it is justified. not that being non-religious implies betta behaviour, but it just goes to show that religion does not imply any claim on correct behaviour
<DaDeaDFISH> but wat abt piety, respect, fellowship, helping the downtrodden, universal love and all those good things? do they not come from religion?
<H@MgB@c0N> so it means if there is no god and no hell u will go around biting pple issit
<DaDeaDFISH> eh sorry u asking the wrong ham, now got god got hell i oso bite pple one
<H@MgB@c0N> oh ya hor
<H@MgB@c0N> but the point is, almost every religion oso claims these good things leh. and mebbe they do help pple to remember these things. but they somehow oso have a knack for mobilizing pple to wack members of other similarly loving religions thruout recorded history leh.
<g!ys> ah yes, "The Muslims massacre the Hindus, the Hindus massacre the Muslims. The Buddhists, everybody massacres the Buddhists." so sayeth The Onion
<g!ys> ok can we move on to the AWARE issue more specifically? we r running out of time
<DaDeaDFISH> so we have a responsible civic-minded lady organizing a few pals to win the right to lead a women's organization thru democratic voting. wat's wrong wif that?
<H@MgB@c0N> actually, nothing
<H@MgB@c0N> just that they suddenly registered a ton of new members. which is legal, fine. budden it turned out that they actual agenda was to be against any acceptance of homosexuality
<g!ys> ham has come across an interesting point here. the old AWARE's stand (it can be hardly called a focus) on homosexuality is, to the best of my knowledge, one of acknowledgement and acceptance, while the view of the new guard is that stuff like anal sex and homosexuality should be seen as negative and not neutral
<DaDeaDFISH> i just thought of a new counterargument. going by inclusiveness and acceptance, what can we be against without being termed bigots? wat about sex with say, animals? or dead bodies? are we allowed to be offended by anything anymore?
<H@MgB@c0N> hmm for one, animals and the dead can't give consent. people can.
<DaDeaDFISH> but you eat animals anyway, and to the non-religious dead is dead right. so why not f**k them?
<H@MgB@c0N> i believe the term is common decency, which the honourable mr fish may feel cannot exist without religion
<DaDeaDFISH> but you would condone it? yes or no?
<DaDeaDFISH> ah ha! but now u are claiming an arbitrary morality! how is this any difference from me being against gays doing it with one another?
<H@MgB@c0N> well, if the dead person consented before death for his or her body to be used as such, instead of say donating the body to science, i guess i could have no objection. put another way, would u be happy if somebody wanked against the wall of your house? gays can of course give mutual consent, and that is the key difference.
<DaDeaDFISH> but... but its just wrong! i think nobody should have to see gays making out with each other
<H@MgB@c0N> as opposed to say, straight people making out with each other?
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<FAKEBERT> that of coz depends on how hot said straight couple is, ma homies!
<H@MgB@c0N> there are laws against obscene public behaviour for everyone lah
<DaDeaDFISH> but being gay is related with all sorts of risky behaviour - promiscuity, STDs, depression, drug abuse, suicides...
<H@MgB@c0N> on the surface, that does seem to be true
<H@MgB@c0N> but i suspect the increased likelihood for stuff like AIDS is due to promiscuity and unprotected sex, not to mention homophobia by health care workers, in which case any campaigns should be targeted at these instead of gayness itself.
<H@MgB@c0N> also for all the ballyhoo abt AIDS, almost as many (presumably straight) Africans (where 6% of adults have HIV) have it as homos (about 8%). but of coz it's rude to criticize the Pope, who preaches against condoms that would help contain the spread of HIV...
<DaDeaDFISH> but its true that abstinence would solve the whole darn thing
<H@MgB@c0N> not that the religious or straight pple have the discipline as a whole either. i repeat, all this is not unique to gays.
<DaDeaDFISH> but you admit the correlation between being gay and these problems. so why not just be against gayness? i dun see the hate for anti-smoking campaigns, for example, altho non-smokers also can get lung cancer
<g!ys> good one
<H@MgB@c0N> yea. so here's the big question. is being gay inborn, or is it learned, and thus "correctible"? many studies have shown that the chance that one identical twin is gay, given that the other is gay, is about 50%
<DaDeaDFISH> ah ha! so part of it is not genetic, and all that is needed is willpower to overcome it then
<H@MgB@c0N> yes, it cannot be ruled out that homosexuality is partly learned
<DaDeaDFISH> so how can you be against pple who simply want to minimize the chances of their kids being taught to become gay?
<H@MgB@c0N> well, despite pple being against certain behaviours, i feel that a bit of exposure is necessary. i don't hear of pple protesting against religious harmony days, for instance, just because their kids may be converted. i doubt ten minutes of knowledge on homosexuality would push a strongly straight kid over the edge and out of the closet
<g!ys> waitamin. strictly speaking, these attitudes towards gays may stem as much from conservative asian values as religion. why is mr ham steering his points around the latter?
<H@MgB@c0N> because six of the new exco coincidentally came from the same religious organization? Their pastor speaks of "a line that God has drawn for us", but I suspect that he is picking and choosing which lines to respect... why not campaign to stone poor guys trying to make a living by working on Sunday, for example? or denounce those who have the temerity to shave their facial hair? or divorce, though plenty of straight, religious people do?
<H@MgB@c0N> there was a ridiculous prohibition against shellfish too, but as is often noted, the dietary restrictions were overturned later on in the good book. let me do my copypasta...
"(The Apostle) Peter is about to meet Cornelius. Cornelius is a gentile. Worse than that, he is a Roman. Worse than that, he is a Roman centurion. Cornelius is about as kosher as a bacon double cheeseburger.
But give Peter credit -- he understood the vision. "Don't call anything unclean that God has made clean." Don't call anyone unclean that God has made clean.
Peter does not treat Cornelius as an unclean outsider. He travels to the centurion's house, where he says, "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean."
Peter gets it. In this new community that God is building, this church, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free. No one is excluded as unclean.
This is the unsubtle point that Luke is hammering home for his gentile friend Theophilus. The surrounding chapters of Acts read like a hyper-P.C. after-school special on celebrating diversity. The church embraces Jews and gentiles, Roman soldiers and slaves, men and women, Africans, Greeks and even a token white European..."
but of coz, neither black nor white, left-handed nor right, took a bit longer; and it is of course easy for those not gay to argue for enforcement on those that are gay, thus keeping to the letter and not the spirit of God's message of Love.
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<H@MgB@c0N> ahem. if i may continue and quote Gandhi:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
<g!ys> low blow, man. uh, ham
<DaDeaDFISH> eh, i... i reserve right of reply
<DaDeaDFISH> i'm scheduled to be upside down in a toilet roll again in five minutes
<g!ys> hokay den, we'll call it a day
<g!ys> and uh, mr fish
<g!ys> u got any EPL tips, what with you being dead & all
<g!ys> c'mon lah
<DaDeaDFISH> ok, how does Newcastle to beat Liverpool 5-0 sound?
<g!ys> er u sure about that
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Over a month since the last challenge, and it now stands at a virtual $1877.25/$2300 with little chance of making up the shortfall. Here goes nothing:
$100 on Liverpool (-1.5) vs Newcastle (at 1.67)
Next: The Beautiful Farce
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